Collectors in Russia (copied from Message board)
Marcus Alan Sherwood-Jenkins marcus@rossiya.freeserve.co.uk
I`ve read some interesting comments on the sight about the absence of society members from the CIS countries. Having recently returned from St Petersburg where besides meeting my collecting friends I attended a weekly - yes weekly -- stamp fair (which every fourth week turns into a regional event) I can safely say that philately is alive and well in Russia. I have some thoughts as to the "absence" of these grass roots collectors:
1. Costs: A reasonably good salary in Russia at the moment would be some 3000 roubles a month, (?75 or $115) thus an annual subscription of say $20 would represent about 15percent of a months wages. The new SG part 10 Russia costs ?25 --fully one third of a months wages. Bear in mind also that a pensioner currently gets about 400 roubles a month which is actually below the governments subsistence level of 1200 roubles.
2. Book prices: very good quality books are available cheaply in Russia, typically a hardcover coffee-table tome on good surfaced paper will cost around ?4 as against ?35-40 in the UK. It is not that philatelic literature from the west is not wanted , simply that it is unaffordable for most collectors. Indeed I am continually impressed by the thirst for knowledge, high standard of education and value placed on education in Russia. The book shops are always full and the museums have queues at the doors -- children, teenagers, soldiers the cultural level is very high which bodes well for a hobby such as philately.
3. Language: this is a problem for some things and some Russian editions or bi-lingual publications would help. It does not however deter the use of foreign handbooks or catalogues. Russians are very patient and will cross reference to a known source.
I would suggest that if we wish to attract collectors from Russia then our offerings have to be priced on a regional basis in the same way as a commercial company will offer cheaper prices to achieve market penetration. then as the economy and circumstance improve so the prices will gradually rise to the normal level. This is a long term strategy but gets "customers in" and we then have to establish the brand loyalty through a good product.
I hope that the above is useful.
Added by Anatoly Kiryushkin, ak@nestor.minsk.by
I've copied the message above to this section as this a subject is a very the internal to be discussed at the open part of the site.
I have found the it was a very correct observation of conditions of philatelic life in Russia. But with a slight exception,- it was measured with a British "ruler". Let me try to measure the same with a Russian "ruler" which usually works as 1 cm. + 1 kg. = 36C.
First a brief historical background of Philately in the USSR to make easier to understand what I mean (as not all our members were visiting the Russia and, moreover, the USSR):
1918-1922 - most of serious collector either escaped from Russia or were murdered (at battle fields of the Civil war or in V.CH.K. basements) but their collections confiscated, destroyed or stolen.
1923-1930 - those who survived the previous period returned to philately plus the state programs of education used philately as a form of distribution knowledge. Numerous philatelic societies were established and a new generation of collectors joined the hobby.
1931-1941 - during the period of real totalitarism in the USSR the authorities become to understand that collectors have to many contacts and know too much apart from official propaganda. Moreover philatelic societies (as any other unofficial community of more than one person) looked as counterrevolution organizations and well known and active collectors went either to labour camps or had got an easier death. This time their collections were accurately confiscated and sold for rising Soviet military industry.
1941-1945 - collectors survived the previous period continue to die either at front or their collections were confiscated by, this time, by German administrations at occupied territories. In 1944 and 1945 things went other way round Russian soldiers and officers (with any interest to stamps) were "confiscated" private collections in Hungary, Romania, Austria and Germany and a flood of stamps went to Russia to fill children collections with rarities. But the officials did it more seriously moving to Russia Postal archives, State collections and especially accumulations of stamps confiscated by Nazi all over Europe. (while a beginning collector I knew a Polish Jew who was a stamp dealer before the war. The whole war he spent in concentration camp and survived because philatelic knowledge as Nazi needed specialists to sort out confiscated collections. When Russians took Poland He was brought to Russia together with stamps and continued the work in NKVD camps till 1951...)
1946-1957 - period of rising a new generation of collectors as shops are full of nice stamps at prices next to nothing, collectors were not so afraid to communicate with one another as after the war the value of human life got a modest cost. Stamp clubs were established in major cities under "roof" of official societies as Artists' Union, Theatre societies and something like this.
1958-1966 - as it was a period of principal liberalization in the USSR. Many local philatelic societies and clubs were established all over the USSR. But, please notice, that they were not societies or clubs from British or American point of view. As no philatelic deals, apart from state philatelic shops and mail deals of individual "collectors" existed, the societies and clubs' main function was a place for collectors meeting to exchange, sell and buy stamps.
1966-1991 - local clubs different relationship with local authorities (some of them supported the hobby, some didn't notice but some were fighting with the "flee markets"). So in 1966 the National Philatelic Society (VOF) was established. It was a starting period of "double standards of thinking" and the VOF was a good reflection of this in Philately. The society founders (activists of local societies) brought the idea of the society as a need of propaganda of USSR stamps and Communist Party ideas. Both sides knew well that it was rubbish, - really, collectors needed a place for official meeting to deal with stamps and guarantees from local authorities' unpredictable suggestions "what it is" but the high authorities needed a decent reason to allow that.
That's why the existing generation of Russian collectors understand that a philatelic society is a weekly stamps fair with some stupid "bla-bla-bla" in rare cases. So the problem with members from CIS countries it not a problem to pay $10.- or $20.- Despite their invisible with naked eye salaries even average collectors have more than enough useful duplicates to place for sale among members to cover the fees (much bigger problem is formalities to make a money transfer to abroad).
Of course, right CIS members may bring a lot exclusive information to the site. But I'm afraid of fast growing CIS members and I know well their way of thinking and what they understand as a philatelic society (You can believe to me as I'm myself from the breed), - not a place to exchange information but a place to exchange material. So within a couple of months the site has a risk to turn into a Turkish bazaar. So while the WSRP is too young it's dangerous to allow it to walk at the "back school yard" with light drugs and heavy drinks.
I though to contact some collectors I trust and know well personally but none of them has e-mail and internet access. Also in most cases I have no idea if they read English or not. Those whom I see in Russian Internet are completely unknown to me.
You all are members of Philatelic societies with long traditions and follow many unwritten rules which never mentioned in societies' constitutions. Those Russian collectors, who travelled to the West, noticed that there is a difference between a stamp fair and a stamp club but , unfortunately, a lot of local collectors still think that it's the same. So if members know someone from ex-USSR who serious enough collector, has access to web and interested in something else apart from exchanging new issues or dealing with wallpaper, - you are welcome to send me references (all the rest I can discuss with them on my own).
Once again, - money is not the main reason and it's easy solvable problem. A bigger problem is to protect the comfortable conditions to visit the site (Nowadays I very seldom visit local clubs just because I feel not comfortable to watch the wholesale deals with modern material and having nothing else useful to do there).
Added by Gary Combs, gcombs@cablespeed.com
I wish to personally thank Anatoly for sharing how things are in the mind of the non-Western collector. Many of us have known this for decades, others are reading it for the first time. Yet other uninformed people may not believe it. For those of us who have the good fortune of living near emigres from Russia/Soviet Union/CIS or communicating with them, this state of mind becomes readily apparent at the very first meeting.
Anatoly has been able to bridge the gap between "east" and "west" in his philatelic dealings. I for one have learned a tremendous amount from my correspondence with him and wish to express my sincerest THANK YOU.
I would like to follow the thought of a "society" just a bit here and invite others to comment. The VOF or whatever it is called today is not a society as we know it. Thus, it cannot speak for "Russians" as a Western society can speak for its members. I suspect it is no different than any other Government sanctioned organization.
It is true that there are many collectors in the CIS and that they view small "get togethers" as the way to do it. There is nothing wrong with this, but it is sometimes foreign to the Western mind. This does not mean by any stretch of the imagination that they are not capable of contributing to any philatelic discussion.
Would it be possible for members of the WSRP to share their experiences in this area. It would be nice to hear from the silent majority as well for a change. I think this understansing is a key to better philatelic relations with non-English speaking people in the FSU and clearly the opening of communications channels heretofore closed.
Please share your thoughts or forever hold your criticism. This is an important subject and the WSRP may well be able to find a way to "bridge the gap."
Sorry for the soap box.
Added by Ivo Stejn, ivosteyn@rocketmail.com
I think/hope that the WSRP will, by its construction, mostly attract serious philatelists, interested in exchange of information, rather than those collectors who are primarily interested in an exchange of material. Just look at the WSRP website: while there is a small "auction" section, it might as well be removed as it sees little use. The Message Board could conceivably attract an epidemic of Wanted To Buy/Sell ads (and we've had a few of those, it's true), but for this privilege, will a collector from the CIS pay $10 a year? I don't think so.
This does not take away anything from Marcus' observation that by CIS living standards, the WSRP fee is high, or from Anatoly's observation that few CIS collectors have regular access to the Internet. But these are both descriptions of current conditions, and we might hope that both will change gradually over the next decade.
I don't see a good reason for NOT allowing members from the CIS to join, and while I suspect it's mostly an academic discussion at the moment, that may change in the future. Perhaps we can reopen the discussion when it becomes more relevant and for the moment, rely on self-selection?
An alternative is to make clear to members and prospective members that the WSRP is NOT intended as a clearing-house for your duplicates, and to add a clause to that effect to the statutes.
Added by Anatoly Kiryushkin, ak@nestor.minsk.by
To Gary: ... the VOF is not longer a "Government sanctioned organization", - Since 1991 it's completely on it's own. But the problem is that they act exacly in the same as before and any changes for them are as "new tricks for old dog". I see that in ex-Byelorussian VOF. As a members of the Committee I take a part in the meeting but recently I preffer not discuss anything. They are all nice people and serious collectors but they can not imagine that a society has to do something else than VOF was doing from 1966 to 1991. They dream to return "gold age" of Byelorussian philately, - in 1985 4.500 members but they don't want to remember that high membership was result of subscription for limited issues and therefore at least a half of "Dead souls" (I paid membership fees for my wife, parents-in-low and all friends at my work though no one was interested in stamps but I had the needed quantity of material for foreign exchages...) In mid 1980's there were two or three Stamp exhibitions each year but the state paid expenses as the majority od exhibits were stupid and endless Lenins, Parties, WWII, etc. and only a small fractions of exhibits were really interesting material. Nowadays only one exhibition in two years but the exhibitions are really philatelic. It's possible to continue but anyway it will be the same, - They understand a philatelic society only in the way as the VOF was.
Added by Anatoly Kiryushkin, ak@nestor.minsk.by
To Ivo: ... I'm agree with everything you say but I would like to add a few words. We have members and visitors part of the site. So limits of commercial matters refer to members part of the site but in the visitors Display and Message board let them place as many commercial entries as they like (a slight problem with the Message board but I plan to divide it to visitors and members as soon as it will be big enough) ... Auction, it's a very nice function with a very good engine. But the auction is neglected because I can not take a duty to run material contacts with vendors and buyers (it's enough for me to be very sorry about two victims of my permanent disorder in paper things, - Pat and Michael) But if someone of our members is ready to run material sendings and handling money it's possible to turn it to a very interestin and enjoyable event. Moreover it's possible to allow the auction engine to other societies or rent to dealers in Russian material. By the way this sort of contacts with dealers are very important to us because as right scans of material offered is a source of information for our catalogue. ..... Finally CIS members. The membership fees issued are not a real financial need of the society but a way to prevent "Dead souls". I'm sorry to say but a couple of members who even paid fees never visited the members' part of the site. Well, we loose nothing allowing free membership for CIS collectors but we will loose a lot if other than membership fees conditions won't be introduced. Any ideas?
Added by Gary Combs, gcombs@cablespeed.com
The VOF may not be Government sponsored as it was prior to 1991, but I submit it remains Government tolerated.
What are the dues to the VOF and what are the benefits of membership?
The introduction of rules/regulations/guidelines/etc. that are not enforced is a waste of time and worthless. In the case we have here with the WSRP, an attempt was made to add an infrastucture and meaning up front. If the members are not willing to participate, the meaning of a "society" is in question as well.
Added by Anatoly Kiryushkin, ak@nestor.minsk.by
but I submit it remains Government tolerated...........They can not imagine to forget it............... What are the dues to the VOF and what are the benefits of membership? ....... To pay fees (hardly anything else as it was in VOF) ..............I don't agree with the last confimation. I enjoy that the site is working (I hardly could maintain a site for long time if it is just "have a look on some stamps from my collection". Practically all personal sites grow intensive for a sort period of time and then fade out". I guess that Alexander, David, Terry, Pat, John, Jean, Andrew (sorry if I missed someone)are enjoying placing information to the site and see that their collecting interests are better presented at the site. Moreover none of us could do it as fast and as complete doing it alone. Watching the site's logs and access database I see that many members, who submit nothing to the site for a while (either because problems to use a scanner or just hesitating), visit the site practically every day. So I guess that they enjoy to watch the things shown and it's wrong to say that they do nothing. What a need to place something to the site if none wishes to see it? So most members perform properly the main this society duty, - to ENJOY the site and their hobby.
Added by Gary Combs, gcombs@cablespeed.com
I agree to a point. However, when the catalog is finished or nearly finished, what is next? Catalogs are great for reference, but offer little else to the philatelist. We have gone from a postal and postal history site to a catalog site with a lot of non-postal items. Perhaps this is the true niche for the WSRP (a name change would be in order), a quasi postal and cinderella picture exhibition. It is not wrong, but the collectors who look beyond a picture of a stamp will find other places to deposit and seek information. One can only look at a picture of an item so many times before it is no longer necessary to do so. Studies revolving around the item are not endless, but offer many more avenues for research and publication.
As a founding member of the WSRP, there is as much of me in the site as from any other member. However, I still would encourage members to at least acknowledge they have read an item posted. As far as members visiting the site frequently, I do not think your figures are accurate. Please remove the number of times I have visited from the statistics and see what remains. I will provide the addresses you will see for me off line, if required.
Since financing the site is not that important, perhaps it should be free and open to the public. Clearly, more people could then see the information and perhaps even participate. One does not need a scanner to type text. If one is afraid of the Internet, then why do they access the URL? Eventually we will lose members who say that we have nothing to offer them, but please note they never volunteered to provide any information.
The facilities offered by Anatoly have almost unlimited potential. This potential has been barely tapped. Anyway, without a vision the site will drift like a ship without power on the high seas changing directions with each pull of the current. Admission of people from the CIS fits very well for a catalog site. Maybe we should welcome them and encourage a lively bourse. Weekly meetings are not required.
Added by Alexander Safonoff, The_Tsar@ix.netcom.com
Ok Gary, I will bite - GRIN. Whatever happened to the old saying - "a picture is worth a thousand words?" While I agree that a simple picture/scan of a common item may not be the most thrilling sight, but one has to start somewhere. This site has to appeal to both the novice and "expert", this can not be done if all it offers is in depth postal history. Sorry but I for one have little interest in a great deal of the written information under the heading of postal history, I am a simple stamp collector primarily intested in the stamps themselves, graced, of course, with an interesting cancel. Once the simple catalogue is completed, then and only then, can the more interesting rare or unknown items can be displayed - so that we all can re-examine our own collection in hope of finding or rediscovering some hidden treasure. If there lacks the type of content that one is interested in, then there is only one person to blame. My purpose for displaying items from my collection falls mainly into the following catagories - 1. To learn more from others, who may have similar items/interests or just knowledge of a particular area of expertise. 2. To encourage other to display items of a similar nature, so that I may enjoy viewing items otherwise hidden in the shadows of an album far away. 3. Lastly (somewhat selfishly) in hopes that others who do not have an interest in a particular item or area, BUT do have other similar items would contact me to dispose of their wares.
Added by Philip Robinson, PRobin391@aol.com
Well, these recent exchanges have proved that there is more to the site than a "picture show" - at least, from the point of view of those members who have participated. It is in the nature of any new society that it needs to work out a role for itself, and the WSRP is no exception. Perhaps the best way to try to identify a way forward is (1) ask members what they want (as has been done in surveys) and (2) ask potential members what they want. If many of our existing members are not very "vocal" this does not necessarily mean that they are not finding the society and its site useful. There are bound to be more visitors than participators/communicators. I am a member of 14 philatelic societies, and in every one, most of the activity is confined to a relatively small "subset" of the membership. My own interests in Russian philately are quite narrow (I also collect 7 other countries) but I have found the WSRP invaluable for maintaining fast contacts with other members, that is, by asking questions, receiving replies to them and maybe helping others with queries about things of which I have some experience. As I have often indicated, I would prefer the WSRP and its website to be non-commercial. So I have faith in Ivo's statement "the WSRP will, by its construction, mostly attract serious philatelists, interested in exchange of information, rather than those collectors who are primarily interested in an exchange of material". However, so far as is humanly possible, we need to try to cater for every interested person who wants to join us. From a Russian's point of view, it would be rather strange for a society to exist primarily to exchange information. After 10 trips to the former USSR, the last 7 of them philatelically-inspired, I am only too aware of the truth of what Anatoly wrote - that societies there have existed mainly to provide a means of buying/selling/exchanging material. Remember that the former USSR did not have a philatelic market as we know it, and that far more exchanging went on there than in the West. That is, suppose Collector A had a nice item that Collector B wanted. Collector A might not part with it until Collector B found something that Collector A wanted. Without dealers with their large stocks for collectors to draw on, it was the best system. As for the WSRP and its future, it would clearly be a good idea if we can attract more members from the CIS, and I know Anatoly is working on this - though neither he nor I know many collectors in the CIS who have access to the Internet. But if we are not attracting many new members, from whatever parts of the globe, I do not think that we should be too despondent. We have not existed for very long, after all, and maybe we need to walk before we can run. We just need to try to walk in the right direction.
Added by Marcus Alan Sherwood-Jenkins marcus@rossiya.freeserve.co.uk
Well, I did not quite expect such a torrent following my observations. I must say it is quite healthy. Thanks to Anatoly for his brief history of philately in Russia. I knew some of these things but have not seen them so succinctly put before or chronologically listed. For what it is worth I found the Catalogue of revenues fantastically helpful, I have recently bought a large collection of revenues and cinderellas many of which I had never seen before. The catalogue has saved me hours of searching for some of these, especially the RSFSR charities. Having the clouor illustrations is a great help as are some of the comments. In the words of Jesus "in my fathers house are many mansions" Let us keep the WSRP broad in outlook and welcome all aspects of the hobby. (Don't worry Gary I'm a postal history nut as well, my biggest problem is that it is all so interesting that setting boundaries is difficult). Thanks to all for a lively site.
Added by Gary Combs, gcombs@cablespeed.comI am still looking for a reliable source of information in which I can find a definition of phillately that states that cinderellas are postal items.
Added by Marcus Alan Sherwood-Jenkins, marcus@rossiya.freeserve.co.ukIn answer to the last, my understanding of philately is the collection and study of stamps. No one on the site has claimed that cinderellas are postage stamps although I would add that my collection includes a number of covers on which a carity or revenue stamp has been used to indicate postage paid. what then? -does it remain a cinderella or does it get to the ball? If I can now be a little controversial I would remind those purists that decry cinderellas the origin of that word. Cinderella was the beautiful girl originally prevented from going to the ball by her wicked stepmother and ugly sisters. If revenues and charity stamps are cinderellas what does that make postage stamps? Again I would urge tolerance on members, no one should be telling another what he or she should or should not collect or pedantically defining what can and cannot be on the site. I recently won a Large silver medal at stamp show 2000 for a display in the open class, a display containing a mix of revenues, postage stamps, postcards and postal stationery all telling a story and related to one another. This display which contained many scarce stamps and items of postal history could not have been entered under any of the traditional classes - in this instance no one would have seen these items because I am not about to remount my collection to satisfy someone elses definition of what a collection should or should not look like. stamp collecting is a hobby that allows for individual choice and development it should remain so. whilst on the topic of dogma I would also add that I hate the pretentious way in which some people use the word philately and always refer to my own hobby as stamp collecting. mint, used, on cover, on postcards, charity stamps, revenue stamps, they are all stamps. I collect them, study them, write about them and enjoy the hobby as do many others and it is better for the hobby if we concentrate on these things rather than contemplating our own navel and trying to define to the nth degree what we are doing and attacking others for their different interpretation of the hobby. A final question for the philatelic purists - how aware are you with your blinkered vision of the crossovers in designs, designers and printing methods between postage stamps, revenues, charity stamps, postcards, currency notes and advertising posters. And secondly how do you illustrate this in a collection if you stick rigidly to one element. Remember that a specialist is someone who knows more and more about less and less, a holistic approach and an open mind can add much to the general pool of "Philatelic" knowledge.
Added by Ruggero Mazzini, rmazzin@tin.itJust to present my congratulations to Mr.Sherwood-Jenkins. Tolerance is a neglected concept in too many parts of the world.